b24 vs b17 range and payload

The aerodynamics of the Flying Fortress stemmed from designs of the late 1920s and early 1930s, featuring a wide chord, the width of the wing from leading to trailing edge, and shorter span. I use B24 alot lately but i hve a sence that there is a small debate between these 2 historical bombers. 73% Upvoted. The British, however, had decided to change tactics after early experiences against the Third Reich. In the Pacific, both B-17s and B-24s were converted for transport use after they were replaced in combat units. However, the circumstances of Doolittle’s letter are somewhat suspect. With the exception of Boeing, all of the competing manufacturers assumed the Army was looking for a twin-engine airplane and designed their entries accordingly. The B-24 was a faster plane having a greater range and payload capacity. The B-17 Flying Fortress vs. the B-24 Liberator—veterans of air campaigns in Europe and the Pacific have long debated the merits of these aircraft. Just as the 43rd began converting to the Liberator, the 380th Bomb Group arrived in Australia and began combat operations with B-24s. In fact, they were lower at 3.73 percent than nine of them and equal to two others, all but two of which entered combat after the 44th. The HALPRO Project, named for its commander, Colonel Harry Halvorsen, had originally been intended for duty in China, where the War Department had envisioned it as the nucleus of a heavy-bomber force equipped with B-24Ds that would begin a strategic bombing campaign against the Japanese homeland from bases in China. It was and is the most produced war plane in … The other did not enter combat until November 26, 1943, more than a year after the 93rd flew its first mission. It is possible that later variants with more powerful Merlins could have carried a … • 35,000 ft (10,668 m) ceiling. Former B-17 crew members who survived a combat tour stress that because the Old Fort brought them home, it has to be the best. On the Asian mainland, Liberators assigned to the 7th Bomb Group of the Tenth Air Force were flying 14-hour missions from bases in India to attack targets as far away as Bangkok, Thailand. Many B-17 battle-damage pictures show holes in—and even sections gone from—the vertical stabilizer, otherwise known as the “tail,” an airfoil, the sole purpose of which is to keep the nose of the airplane tracking straight; however, there are pictures of B-24s maintaining formation with one of their twin vertical stabilizers shot completely away—and one famous Liberator suffered the loss of both when it was struck by a British Lancaster bomber, yet it returned to the United States for a War Bond Tour. People almost always say the B17 because it is the one that is in most of the movies and tv shows i.e, gets the most attention. NOTES: Shapes below depict aircraft from wingtip-to-wingtip / nose-to-tail assuming aircraft are being viewed from overhead perspective (the nose pointing towards the top of the screen). The heavier losses among Fifteenth Air Force groups were due in part to the longer missions over enemy territory, while two of the most heavily defended targets in Europe—the oil fields at Ploesti and aircraft factories at Wiener-Nuestad, Austria—lay within the Fifteenth’s area of responsibility. Few writers have ever used statistics or aircraft performance to prove their point, but have relied primarily on what they have learned from advocates who are on one side or the other of the argument. Doolittle’s letter is interesting because he wrote it at a time when losses in his command had been declining for some time while his sister unit in the U.S. Strategic Air Forces in Europe, the Fifteenth Air Force, was continuing to sustain fairly heavy losses among its force of B-17s and B-24s. In the Pacific Theater, there was no doubt as to which type was “best” because it became an all-B-24 region by the end of 1943. The legend of the superiority of the Flying Fortress over the Liberator was born. The lesser > B-25 was sent to the less critical theatres while the B--26 was kept where the General Kenney began his World War II combat career in the Pacific with two heavy-bomber groups under his command, the 19th and 43rd, both of which were equipped with B-17s and had been in combat since early in the war. General George Churchill Kenney chose the B-24 as the heavy bomber for his theater because, unlike the daylight-bombing crowd that had gone to Europe, he had no particular preference for the B-17. We do not sell any of the items showcased on this site. Ironically, the 44th sustained twice as many losses as the seemingly charmed 93rd. I was always wondering what was the better/more sucessful aircraft, and how those 2 rather similar planes compared to each other on a technical level. In late 1942, the 90th Bomb Group arrived in Australia with four squadrons of B-24Ds. It is also worth noting that the Eighth Air Force B-24s were often used on tactical missions at lower altitudes where ground fire was more effective after the invasion, while in the strategic role their formations operated below the B-17s, where the flak was thicker. He wrote it at a time when the War Department was in the process of cutting back on aircraft production and was making the decision as to which types to continue in production. This is particularly true of veterans who flew in England where B-17s predominated within the Eighth Air Force, and where large numbers of war correspondents reported on the air war over Germany as it was being fought by the crews of the Flying Fortresses in the summer of 1943. Overall losses of Mosquito? Twenty-five other Liberators were lost from the two Ninth Air Force groups on the mission known as “Tidal Wave.”. In 1942, Ford Motor Company began converting B-24Ds into the C-87 transport on the assembly lines at the Willow Run Plant in Michigan for a burgeoning military airline that was soon operating the converted Liberators throughout the world. The Stirling made a pretty good glider tug. Only two bombs were believed to have actually hit the targets they were aimed at—and not a single German fighter had fallen to the Fortresses’ guns. The aircraft was powered by four Pratt & Whitney R-1690 Hornet radial engines, each producing 750 hp (600 kW) at 7,000 ft (2,100 m). Perhaps the answer lies in the fact that there was more dead space in the huge airfoils of the B-17 where hits could do little damage. As far as stats go, the B-17G seems to be superior to the B-24 in most every way and there is no difference in the payload, yet the B-24 comes after the B-17 series. No less than 51 Eighth Air Force B-24s were lost during the three months the three groups were in Africa, a loss of almost half of the airplanes in the groups. The ultimate goal was finally achieved with the advent of the long-range B-36, though that airplane did not enter service until several years after the war. Fortunately, part of the group had been moved south to a new airfield at Del Monte on Mindanao and would continue to fly from there for several weeks. Attacks were aimed at the supply lines of the German Afrika Korps, particularly the ports and supply depots at Tobruk and Benghazi in Libya. The B-24 became a key factor in the plans of Generals Douglas MacArthur and Kenney as they sought to push the Japanese farther and farther north away from Australia and back toward Japan. By mid-October the American heavy bomber force in Palestine consisted of 53 B-24s and only 10 B-17s. It was and is the most produced war plane in … If the B-17G was so much more “rugged” than the B-24J, why did it weigh 20 percent less standing empty? Of the 230 bombers that went to Schweinfurt, 36 failed to return—a total of 60 B-17s had been lost in one day. One of the most frequently discussed arguments to come out of World War II is which was the “better” bomber, the Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress or the Consolidated B-24 Liberator? The B-17 and the B-24 inevitably invited comparison. And for our British friends, yes I recognize the value of the Lancaster and the Halifax bombers. The B24 Liberator however was bigger, had a longer range and bigger payload than the 17. The B-24 was powered by B-24 crews are loyal to their airplane. The "Military Factory" name and MilitaryFactory.com logo are registered ® U.S. trademarks protected by all applicable domestic and international intellectual property laws. Consequently, B-24s in the Pacific flew missions at much lower altitudes than heavy bombers in Europe, and thus achieved much greater accuracy with their bombs. The empty weight of an airplane is the sum of the weight of the components used in its construction—including the ribs, spars, stringers, and longerons that form the wings, the vertical and horizontal stabilizers, and the fuselage. The August 1, 1943, mission to Ploesti cost the Eighth Air Force groups 30 B-24s out of 103 on the 171-plane mission, a loss rate just shy of 30 percent and considerably higher than the loss rates suffered by the B-17s on the Regensburg and Schweinfurt missions. The Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress is a four-engine heavy bomber developed in the 1930s for the United States Army Air Corps (USAAC). British military aviation leaders suggested that the Americans do likewise, but the Eighth Air Force leadership insisted on continuing daylight operations. The skies were extremely hazardous for both types, and the B-24s were getting their share of punishment from enemy fighters and flak. However, in the wake of the Doolittle Raid, Burma fell and a massive Japanese offensive in China led to the loss of the region from which the bombers were to operate. Bomber Battle: B-17 Flying Fortress vs. the Consolidated B-24 Liberator. Missions were flown at night and in daylight as the fledgling Ninth Air Force took advantage of the cloak of darkness on missions to the most heavily defended targets. The B24 Liberator however was bigger, had a longer range and bigger payload than the 17. Each plane is different - butconsidering all the Hollywood movies ever made about the air combatduring the Second World war the B-17 is the most well known. When comparing the number of sorties flown and losses sustained by the two types, the difference is even greater. 4 x Wright Cyclone R-1820-97 radial piston engines developing 1,200 horsepower each driving three-bladed propeller units. First deployed in February 1941, a lack of power quartered its bomb load during long range flights and performance issues meant that it sustained particularly heavy casualties. I assume maybe it's for grinding the B-29 but I used the B-17 for that … The British slang “kite” is appropriate for the B-17, because the huge wing provided tremendous lift that did make for a stable bombing platform and, at least in the minds of B-17 fans, provided increased lift that was valuable in the event of a power loss on an engine. Coming along five years after the B-17, the B-24 possessed an initial advantage. The Liberator also played the major role in the antisubmarine Battle of the Atlantic, becoming a weapon greatly feared by German U-boat crews. c. 0.5% Overall losses of B24/B17 c. 3% (and the Lancaster, Halifax etc). Gen. Billy Mitchell and was a widely held view among the officers of the Army Air Corps, though future events would later prove it to have been unfounded. France was lacking in long-range bombing capabilities, and the United States agreed to provide a number of the new bombers, which had been given the nickname “Liberator,” allegedly by Winston Churchill. Why the RAF Preferred the Liberator over the Flying Fortress. Am I missing something? The 22nd Bomb Group, which had entered combat with B-26s, then was equipped with B-25s, would also convert to the B-24. Rooney has never really said why he believes this. This is more common with conceptual, experimental, and x-plane designs. Many B-17 aficionados rely on emotion to attempt to strengthen their position. Much of the flying was over water, which reduced the exposure of the bomber crews to flak to a small percentage of mission time in comparison to the constant exposure faced by Eighth Air Force crews prior to the Normandy invasion. The B-17's armament consisted of five .30 caliber (7.62 mm) machine guns, with a payload up to 4,800 lb (2,200 kg) of bombs on two racks in the bomb bay behind the cockpit. 1500 miles, so Berlin & back with 4000 lbs would have been possible, though perhaps not at high speed, and assuming a pretty direct flightpath. B17 0 vote(s) 0.0% B24 11 vote(s) 100.0% Page 1 of 2 1 2 Next > german mauser k98k man Member. Your selected aircraft are compared in side-by-side arrangement below. B-17 vs B-24. Most of the original B-24s delivered to the Army Air Corps were converted into transports, as were about half the LB-30s that were repossessed from the British. The U.S. B-24s often operated in formation with RAF Liberator squadrons. Similarly, vets experienced with the Consolidated B-24 Liberator say the same thing about their airplane. (Get the full details of this mission and many other pivotal moments in World War II history by subscribing.). The huge stabilizer of the B-17 presented a target for rounds that would miss the smaller tail of a B-24. B-24 carried a bigger bomb load, was a tad faster and had more range. Beginning in the spring of 1943, the 43rd Bomb Group replaced its B-17s with B-24s, ending the combat career of the Flying Fortress in the Pacific. Senior Air Corps strategists wanted a long-range bomber with a 5,000-mile range, a concept that led to the design and development of the B-15 and then to the even more ambitious B-19. The B-24s in Africa performed well as they went against German and Italian targets. In B-17 groups, 1.66 percent of the sorties resulted in a loss, while in B-24 groups the loss rate was 1.26 percent, a difference of 0.4 percent. Initially, the British were impressed with the Fort’s ability to withstand gunfire, but that early confidence quickly faded as the desired results were not achieved. The B-24, on the other hand, incorporated a brand-new wing design that was on the very cutting edge of aviation technology in 1937. Groups flying B-17s flew 60.38 percent of sorties flown by the Eighth Air Force and sustained 69.75 percent of the losses, while B-24 groups flew 29.77 percent of the sorties yet sustained only 26.1 percent of the heavy bombers lost. Advocates of the superiority of the B-17 are surprised to learn that their per-sortie overall loss rate was nearly half a percent higher among Eighth Air Force groups than that of their peers who flew B-24s. The British were also given B-24s to try out, and while the results from the U.S. viewpoint were less than hoped for, the RAF did prefer the B-24 Liberator over the B-17 Flying Fortress because of its heavier payload capabilities. By the end of the war, the Army had increased the gross weight of the B-17G to the point that it could carry a bomb load almost as great as that carried by the B-24J, but at a sacrifice in airspeed that made the Fortress more than 50 miles per hour slower at normal cruise speed. The combat records of both aircraft do exist, and they indicate that the views put forth by B-17 advocates may indeed fall well within the category of wishful thinking. Flying Fortress crew members began saying that they didn’t need a fighter escort when the Liberators were along, because the German fighters would go after the smaller force of B-24s. Losses due to accident were as great as those from enemy action. What the B-24 groups were not getting was publicity. 6731 Whittier Avenue, Suite C-100 McLean, VA 22101, From Tolkien to Hitler: Famous Soldiers of World War I, The Battle for Omaha Beach: The Men of the D-Day Invasion, Napoleon Bonaparte’s Last Campaign: The Battle of Waterloo, Operation Barbarossa: World War II’s Eastern Front, The Battle of Gettysburg: Turning Point of the American Civil War. If any dimensional values are "NA" in the database then the presented shapes may appear skewed. Which was the better airplane? Along with thousands of words telling how the brave boys in B-17s were going up against the Germans, pictures of battle-damaged airplanes began showing up in Stars & Stripes and U.S. newspapers that illustrated the “ruggedness” of the Flying Fortresses. It was designed by the Consolidated Aircraft Company (later Consolidated-Vultee) in response to a January 1939 U.S. Army Air Force (USAAF) requirement for a four-engined heavy bomber. There is only one part of an airplane—any airplane—that is absolutely necessary for flight and that is the wing. If the spar on the wing of the B-24 was hit by flak or an explosive cannon round, it was likely to fail, sending the airplane into a spin toward the ground. The report of the RAF crews who flew both the American-designed Flying Fortress and Liberator was that they might be suitable for a war in the Pacific where missions would be flown over open expanses of ocean, but they were too poorly armed for daylight operations into Germany. The 147 airplanes of the Regensburg force were to go on to North Africa. In the annals of military history magazines, this is one of those moments. The 93rd went on to rack up an impressive combat record, including the lowest loss rate of any of the heavy-bomber groups that entered combat with the Eighth Air Force in 1942. The long, narrow Davis Wing was what is known as a “high aspect ratio” wing, meaning that the span is proportionally much greater than the chord, a feature that provides significantly reduced drag and increased performance on heavier airplanes—which is why the B-24 was considerably faster than the B-17. save. So since we have a nice WT audience here, which one do u think guys is better to use? For several weeks the 93rd was the only B-24 group flying combat from English bases. Except for the 19th Bomb Group crews which were brought down to Darwin from Del Monte, few of the bomber pilots had more than a few hours of four-engine experience. As a result, it was phased out as the C-54 Skymaster became available. Part of the B-17 myth is its “rugged construction.” However, in the aviation world, “rugged” and “weight” are practically synonymous, and the fact is that the Liberator was considerably heavier than the B-17 in all models. Dimensions: Wingspan 110 feet 0 inches, length 66 feet 4 inches, height 17 feet 11 inches, wing area 1048 square feet. Since the European Theater of Operations had been given precedence in the conduct of the war, the Eighth Air Force had priority in equipment and was receiving the new B-17 groups that had already been formed before the outbreak of the war. Maximum range 3500 miles. On an ironic note, losses among Fifteenth Air Force groups increased even while they decreased in the Eighth as Allied ground forces closed in on Germany. However, the real reason the B-24s had gone to Africa was to attack the Ploesti, Romania, oil refineries in a daring low-level attack that put the crews in range of every weapon available to the German defenders, from 88mm antiaircraft guns to machine pistols, not to mention German and Romanian fighter aircraft. Not a single B-17 bomber ever appeared in the skies over Japan while hostilities were under way. While the detachment was in the Middle East, the Germans went on the offensive in Africa, and the HALPRO force was ordered to remain in Palestine. The LB-30s did not fare very well in combat in Java (neither did the B-17s) in large measure due to the inexperience of the crews. It had a longer range and greater payload. As the war moved northward, Far East Air Forces Liberators began attacking the Japanese homeland. It was among the Eighth Air Force B-17 and B-24 crews that the arguments were strongest, and it is among those veterans that they have continued, as a general public consensus has developed that the B-17 was the best bomber ever built. The 19th had been in continuous combat since December 8, 1941, and was already worn out. In the Eighth Air Force, 1.43 percent of all heavy-bomber sorties resulted in an aircraft missing in action. It was in the Philippines and Java that U.S. heavy bombers made their combat debut. You can always go back and Compare any two aircraft in our database. In January 1939, prompted by President Franklin D. Roosevelt, U.S. Army Air Corps Commander General Henry “Hap” Arnold published a requirement for a four-engine bomber with a 3,000-mile range, a top airspeed in excess of 300 miles per hour, and a service ceiling of 35,000 feet. But the AF commanders concerned made exactly the opposite determination. There have been countless thousands of published works devoted to all or of it. Competing against Douglas and Martin for a contract to build 200 bombers, the Boeing entry (prototype Model 299/XB-17) outperformed both competitors and exceeded the air corps' performance specifications. This question is about one of the most misunderstood comparisons in all of aviation history. However, if the spar on a B-17 was hit, the results were the same. Log in or Sign ... B24 or B17. Throughout the summer of 1943, Eighth Air Force B-17 crews found themselves alone in the skies on the long—and treacherous—missions over Germany. WWII Quarterly, the hardcover journal of the Second World War that is not available in bookstores or on newsstands, and can only be obtained and collected through a personal subscription through the mail. Stripped of guns, armor, and other equipment, the transport version of the B-24 could carry a 10,000-pound payload up to 1,000 miles, or 6,000 pounds over 3,300 miles. In reality, it is probably accurate to say that for the kind of war fought by the Eighth and Fifteenth Air Forces in Europe, there was really very little difference. Material presented throughout this website is for historical and entertainment value only and should not to be construed as usable for hardware restoration, maintenance, or general operation. There have been countless thousands of published works devoted to all or of it. Both the Flying Fortress and the Liberator were equipped with engines that were flat-rated at 1,200 shaft horsepower each at takeoff—for a total of 4,800 hp on an airplane with all engines running. In fact, the loss rate per sortie for the 93rd Bomb Group was lower than that of all but three of the B-17 groups, two of which did not enter combat until mid-1944. In early 1943, a squadron of C-87s was sent to India’s Assam Valley for operations across the Himalayan Hump into China. After the 44th Bomb Group entered combat, it quickly achieved a reputation as a “hard luck” outfit, taking fairly heavy losses in comparison to the other groups, though they came about in ones and twos, and in one instance as the result of a midair collision. Stripped of guns, armor, and other equipment, the transport version of the B-24 could carry a 10,000-pound payload up to 1,000 miles, or 6,000 pounds over 3,300 miles. They joined the two B-24 groups of the Ninth Air Force Bomber Command on a series of missions against targets along the Mediterranean, including Naples, Rome, and the German aircraft factories at Weiner-Neustadt in Austria. Can someone give me a broad overview? A proposed 1,500-mile combat radius would lead to the development of the B-29 and the B-32 which followed, but it also caused the Army to take a closer look at a new design put forth by Ruben Fleet’s company, Consolidated Aircraft. At high altitude the airplane lacked the speed and firepower to deal with enemy attack. The range with 4000 lbs was approx. You can always go back and Compare any two aircraft in our database. Although the skip-bombing role was assumed by the twin-engine A-20 and B-25 gunships that became important weapons in the Southwest Pacific, some B-24s were modified with radar equipment to become “snoopers,” which flew at night on daring low-level attacks against Japanese shipping. Boeing, however, elected to increase power with two additional engines and thus came up with a design that would increase both range and payload beyond those then possible with two engines. It was not until the late summer of 1942 that American heavy bombers began operations over Western Europe from bases in England. Only a few Liberators were in the Far East serving as transports when the war broke out, and a few others would be sent to Australia in the opening weeks of the war. In January 1945, Eighth Air Force Commander Lt. Gen. James H. Doolittle wrote a letter to Army Air Forces chief of procurement General Barney Giles in which he expressed his preferences for the B-17 over the B-24 for his command. When they got there, 24 bombers were missing, 17 of which had been shot down. The summer and early fall of 1943 were dark days for the B-17s of the Eighth Air Force as they attempted deep-penetration raids into Germany without fighter escort. Another use of the Liberator that proved extremely valuable to the war effort was as a long-range transport. During the first week of June 1943, the 389th Bomb Group arrived in England to bolster the two groups already there. Deep raids were called off in mid-October 1943 and were not resumed until February 1944, when long-range escort fighters such as the P-51 Mustang became available. of bombs maximum payload was 17,500lbs) and a speed of 287 mph. After the Java Campaign, B-17s remained as the only heavy bombers operating in what had become the Southwest Pacific Area of Operations, though a handful of LB-30s and B-24s served in the transport role. There are moments in military history that forever alter the flow of human events. share. It changed the world more than any other single event in history. The Short Stirling was the RAF’s first four-engined bomber, meeting pre-war specifications that required a 14,000 lb bomb load capacity and a challenging range of 3,000 miles. Range: 2300 miles with 5000 pounds of bombs. This thread is archived. Liberator production continued for several weeks after B-17 production ceased, and was only suspended when it became apparent that the war would soon be over. The larger wings and vertical stabilizer of the B-17 could take hits that did only superficial damage because they missed crucial components that would cause structural failure if they were damaged. The B-17 Flying Fortress designed by Boeing orthe Consolidated B-24 Liberator? The B-29, you could say, was more effective because of its much greater range and its greater payload. The one area in which the B-17 had better performance, at least in theory, was that the airplane’s lighter weight allowed it to operate at higher altitudes. Other long-range missions were being flown by B-24s assigned to the 28th Composite Group in the Alaska Command.
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